I think you’re really on to something here. I’ve been reading the Aeneid, the Iliad, and the Odyssey over the last couple of years and I’m going to be thinking about them again from the point of view of these two “grammars.”
The story of Aeneas and Dido looks to me like this male romance grammar. According to Virgil, Aeneas really did love Dido, and not just sexually. It was definitely a case where he had to keep moving, even if wanted to stay. Worse, the gods play around with the two of them, and give Aeneas the idea that it might actually be allowed to stay in Carthage and re-plant his Trojans there, instead of going further and ending up in Rome. Then Mercury shows up.
I like the distillation of the view from which female and male romances operate - i.e. female is "Who will choose me and build a future with me?" while male is "Who will see me truly as I move through the world?" - but to say male romances end in tragedy is inaccurate. Louis L'Amour's romances certainly have the "movement" of men making their way through the world, but those men are always looking for a partner with whom to move through the world as they work and build.
Sometimes, too, there are complications. In *Sitka*, the male lead falls in love with a married woman. Her first (older) husband does die in the narrative (not at the hero's hand) but that doesn't stop the male lead from being firm in his belief that he will love no other woman save her even when she is initially out of his reach, staying loyal to her first husband. *Last Stand at Papago Wells* has Logan Cade, an Army scout, fall in love with a wealthy rancher's daughter as she tries to elope with another man. She eventually comes to the realization that Cade is the better man and chooses him over her initial fiance. *The Cherokee Trail* has no confirmed romance in it, though Temple Boone and the local rancher both are intrigued by Mary Breydon when she comes to take over the stage station on the titular trail. L'Amour ends the novel without indicating which man Mary may be interested in - or if she is interested in either at all.
In none of these stories do the women die, yet they are all attractive to men who move through the world and they are still books which male readers enjoy. Based on this overview, it would seem more accurate to say that male romance follows a man seeking a woman who will watch and support him as he moves through the world, and who will help him build in it, starting with building his family! Which examples were you thinking of in your analysis where the women always die?
Hm. Male tragedies vs male romances. You put out the call and I'll rack my brain on it.
Like would we count die hard? There is a romance at the core of it, culminating in the wife finally witnessing John's love; capabilities and above all, sacrifice. But it ends happily. I think we need to refine some definitions but you're definitely onto something.
Oh! I remember now. Beyond the Boundary is an anime that would almost have to be a definition of your male romance. It's only a 12 episode series but they did a condensed movie you could check out for data.
Ellen Lied.... yeah not for families but man is that male romance too.
It actually has BOTH romances in it. I don't want to say more because you really shouldn't spoil it before watching. Just of any of these, I'd really be interested in seeing your reaction to that one.
Lastly KPop Demon Hunters? Yeah recently exploded into pop culture. And would be male romance per this article. So what does it say that one of the biggest movies of last year is such a massive hit among women? (I saw it in a packed theater. Believe me, EVERYONE loves it.)
I do think Die Hard would count, but the one I always think of in this context is Lethal Weapon 2; Rigg's agony at the death of his girlfriend is just gut-wrenching. I think, also, that the best literature is open to both types of romance and honest about the tension between them. I also think that very tension is what draws women to male romance - the egotistical thought that maybe SHE could be the one to bring that man into port, to stop his wanderings. Certainly it's a trope in women's romance today.
Also, ironically, I was watching this video when your reply came through and it was surprisingly on topic. I’ve timestamped it to Alan’s relevant question.
VERY interesting. I was thinking about this today - wondering whether the odd disinterest Gen Z has in sex might have something to do with the hyperfocus on sexuality in the form of infinite permutations of pairings - or triplings or whatever. I'm watching this whole thing, thank you.
Oooh. Ok. I think I see where you're going. But to really grok it, I need you to see KPop Demon Hunters (for light and fun) and Along With the Gods. Once I've seen how you would classify those two in this taxinomy, then I think we'd be on the same page.
Meanwhile I will try to watch Lethal Weapon 2. (When you brought it up, it hit me that I don't think I've ever seen it - only 1, 3, and 4.)
Wait- that is the one with "Diplomatic Immunity" in it. I think I've ironically only ever seen the climax on TV, I don't think I've seen the whole film. Will try to rectify that. (And so then would LW3 and 4 be female romance coded since Murtagh gets the girl and then marries her?)
I'll make a point of watching them. As for making that female romance coded - I don't know. I think so? I mean, at some point men stop and get married - but generally when they stop, so does the series.
Ohhhh... and yeah, LW4 is when Murtagh gets married and is the last film.
Though it is interesting that he is partnered and contrasted with Riggs who is happily married and stable.
The taxonomy is not helped by the plethora of long and short storytelling that proliferate our society. Like I don't even want to try and classify comic books in this where Superman spends years pursuing Lois, then they get married - then reboots and Supes is with Wonder Woman...
I think you’re really on to something here. I’ve been reading the Aeneid, the Iliad, and the Odyssey over the last couple of years and I’m going to be thinking about them again from the point of view of these two “grammars.”
The story of Aeneas and Dido looks to me like this male romance grammar. According to Virgil, Aeneas really did love Dido, and not just sexually. It was definitely a case where he had to keep moving, even if wanted to stay. Worse, the gods play around with the two of them, and give Aeneas the idea that it might actually be allowed to stay in Carthage and re-plant his Trojans there, instead of going further and ending up in Rome. Then Mercury shows up.
My poem from his point of view: https://maryh10000.substack.com/p/aeneas-love-for-dido
I like the distillation of the view from which female and male romances operate - i.e. female is "Who will choose me and build a future with me?" while male is "Who will see me truly as I move through the world?" - but to say male romances end in tragedy is inaccurate. Louis L'Amour's romances certainly have the "movement" of men making their way through the world, but those men are always looking for a partner with whom to move through the world as they work and build.
Sometimes, too, there are complications. In *Sitka*, the male lead falls in love with a married woman. Her first (older) husband does die in the narrative (not at the hero's hand) but that doesn't stop the male lead from being firm in his belief that he will love no other woman save her even when she is initially out of his reach, staying loyal to her first husband. *Last Stand at Papago Wells* has Logan Cade, an Army scout, fall in love with a wealthy rancher's daughter as she tries to elope with another man. She eventually comes to the realization that Cade is the better man and chooses him over her initial fiance. *The Cherokee Trail* has no confirmed romance in it, though Temple Boone and the local rancher both are intrigued by Mary Breydon when she comes to take over the stage station on the titular trail. L'Amour ends the novel without indicating which man Mary may be interested in - or if she is interested in either at all.
In none of these stories do the women die, yet they are all attractive to men who move through the world and they are still books which male readers enjoy. Based on this overview, it would seem more accurate to say that male romance follows a man seeking a woman who will watch and support him as he moves through the world, and who will help him build in it, starting with building his family! Which examples were you thinking of in your analysis where the women always die?
Hm. Male tragedies vs male romances. You put out the call and I'll rack my brain on it.
Like would we count die hard? There is a romance at the core of it, culminating in the wife finally witnessing John's love; capabilities and above all, sacrifice. But it ends happily. I think we need to refine some definitions but you're definitely onto something.
Oh! I remember now. Beyond the Boundary is an anime that would almost have to be a definition of your male romance. It's only a 12 episode series but they did a condensed movie you could check out for data.
Ellen Lied.... yeah not for families but man is that male romance too.
Finally Along with the gods, the last 49 days https://link.tubi.tv/3ZRTcpEpi0b
It actually has BOTH romances in it. I don't want to say more because you really shouldn't spoil it before watching. Just of any of these, I'd really be interested in seeing your reaction to that one.
Lastly KPop Demon Hunters? Yeah recently exploded into pop culture. And would be male romance per this article. So what does it say that one of the biggest movies of last year is such a massive hit among women? (I saw it in a packed theater. Believe me, EVERYONE loves it.)
I do think Die Hard would count, but the one I always think of in this context is Lethal Weapon 2; Rigg's agony at the death of his girlfriend is just gut-wrenching. I think, also, that the best literature is open to both types of romance and honest about the tension between them. I also think that very tension is what draws women to male romance - the egotistical thought that maybe SHE could be the one to bring that man into port, to stop his wanderings. Certainly it's a trope in women's romance today.
Also, ironically, I was watching this video when your reply came through and it was surprisingly on topic. I’ve timestamped it to Alan’s relevant question.
https://youtu.be/cToH6bnss-w?t=471
VERY interesting. I was thinking about this today - wondering whether the odd disinterest Gen Z has in sex might have something to do with the hyperfocus on sexuality in the form of infinite permutations of pairings - or triplings or whatever. I'm watching this whole thing, thank you.
Oooh. Ok. I think I see where you're going. But to really grok it, I need you to see KPop Demon Hunters (for light and fun) and Along With the Gods. Once I've seen how you would classify those two in this taxinomy, then I think we'd be on the same page.
Meanwhile I will try to watch Lethal Weapon 2. (When you brought it up, it hit me that I don't think I've ever seen it - only 1, 3, and 4.)
Wait- that is the one with "Diplomatic Immunity" in it. I think I've ironically only ever seen the climax on TV, I don't think I've seen the whole film. Will try to rectify that. (And so then would LW3 and 4 be female romance coded since Murtagh gets the girl and then marries her?)
I'll make a point of watching them. As for making that female romance coded - I don't know. I think so? I mean, at some point men stop and get married - but generally when they stop, so does the series.
Ohhhh... and yeah, LW4 is when Murtagh gets married and is the last film.
Though it is interesting that he is partnered and contrasted with Riggs who is happily married and stable.
The taxonomy is not helped by the plethora of long and short storytelling that proliferate our society. Like I don't even want to try and classify comic books in this where Superman spends years pursuing Lois, then they get married - then reboots and Supes is with Wonder Woman...
(Don't even get me started on Spider-man.)
At a glance I think I already am going to like this and need to share it with Jagi Lamplighter.
As I too was writing on similar topics myself recently.
https://natewinchester.wordpress.com/2025/12/23/the-journey-of-man-and-woman/
Also thanks for forwarding this to Jagi and Caroline Furlong - I didn't realize they were on Substack!
Surrounded by friends and didn't know. Like ships passing in the night.... lol 😉
LOL!